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  Tema: Argentina had help from the Soviet Union
humbolt

Respuestas: 4
Lecturas: 20474

MensajeForo: Guerra de Malvinas   Publicado: Jue Abr 01, 2010 8:07 pm   Asunto: Argentina had help from the Soviet Union
Shuriel escribió:
Descubriste la pólvora, pedazo de ignorante. Ahora que harás, ponerte histérica como el resto de tus compatriotas?. Demás está decir que fue mucho menor que la que UK recibió de EEUU. Yo reeditaría la alianza Rusa, aunque me parezca un cachetazo injustificado a los EEUU...


Laughing
  Tema: Argentina had help from the Soviet Union
humbolt

Respuestas: 4
Lecturas: 20474

MensajeForo: Guerra de Malvinas   Publicado: Jue Abr 01, 2010 6:31 pm   Asunto: Argentina had help from the Soviet Union
Argentina had help from the Soviet Union during the Falklands’s War, Tony Halpin, Moscow

Argentina may have been receiving help from the Soviet Union during the Falklands’s war/Argentina received help on Falklands Russian journalist Sergei Brilev has uncovered evidence Moscow passed satellite photos to junta on British invasionTony Halpin Moscow As it fought the British task force in the struggle for the Falklands, Argentina was receiving help from the Soviet Union, a Russian writer has claimed.

Moscow made an unlikely ally for the right-wing junta that had occupied the islands but the journalist Sergei Brilev has uncovered evidence that the Soviet Union was spying on the British at the height of the 1982 conflict.

He concluded in a recent book that the Kremlin came close to thwarting the Falklands expedition and the career of Margaret Thatcher by passing vital intelligence to the Argentina Air Force from Soviet satellitespositioned over the war zone.

Mr Brilev interviewed former KGB and Red Army generals who confirmed that Moscow was tracking the Royal Navy around the Falklands during the war. He told The Times: “The exact data passed is still classified but there are coincidences of chronology that show that several Argentine successes may have been the result of what the Soviets provided.”

A satellite launched on May 15 was particularly helpful as British troops were landing and coming under constant attack infrom Argentine jets at San Carlos Bay, known as “bomb alley”. Argentine missiles sunk HMS Coventry and the support ship Atlantic Conveyor on May 25, raising fears in London of a catastrophic military defeat if more vessels went down and the task force could not support the soldiers on the ground.

“Argentina did not have the intelligence capability to track those ships. It’s quite possible that they got the co-ordinates from the Soviets,” said Mr Brilev.

The Soviet satellites may also have played a role in the war’s most controversial incident, the sinking of the General Belgrano by a British submarine with the loss of 368 lives. Mr Brilev said that Norway intercepted Soviet satellite photographs showing the Belgrano’s position and passed them to Britain as a Nato ally.“So it may have been the USSR that helped the British to hit the Belgrano,” said Mr Brilev, who is an anchor and deputy director of the Rossiya state television channel in Moscow.

While the Kremlin hoped to damage Britain as a Nato enemy, Mr Brilev suggested a more basic reason for its support of the right-wing junta. Argentina was one of only two countries that ignored an embargo on exports of key foodstuffs to the struggling Soviet economy after Moscow’s invasion of Afghanistan in 1979.

“The commercial interchange reached $2 billion (£1.3 billion), which was a fantastically big sum at that time. The USSR owed them something,” he said.

After the overthrow of General Galtieri, Argentina’s new democratic Government cut intelligence links with Moscow. Mrs Thatcher went on to form a vital relationship with Mikhail Gorbachev when he emerged as a reforming Soviet leader two years later.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7085117.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797093
  Tema: Censura en fkl/mlv
humbolt

Respuestas: 20
Lecturas: 68508

MensajeForo: Malvinas hoy   Publicado: Lun Mar 29, 2010 5:13 pm   Asunto: Censura en fkl/mlv
El Eternauta escribió:
humbolt escribió:
It isn't Argentine territory though, and never will be!

Argentines can bleat all they like, but you can't have what wasn't yours in the first place!



Te guste o no te guste las islas Malvinas es propiedad de la Argentina. Hasta ustedes mismos lo están reconociendo. Todo lo que hizo Gran Bretaña en las islas Malvinas desde 1833 hasta la fecha es ilegal y nunca fue reconocido por los gobiernos argentinos.

No podés venir a escribir barbaridades cuando sabemos muy bien que hay gente experta en el tema y que saben que Gran Bretaña les robó las islas Malvinas a la Argentina. Eso dejalo para los ignorantes que no saben como es la historia.



Un abrazo


I don't think so, and I have yet to see an Argentine argument that stands up to close scrutiny. However, I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but I will quote Foreign Office minister Chris Bryant who says “as a country and as democrats we (the UK) believe in self determination, and if the people of the Islands want to remain British, that is their choice and we will always support them”.

I support that viewpoint regardless of what Argentines may think.

However, if your experts are so sure of their case, why do they still refuse to follow any credible legal route?

Plastic face's tactics are all smoke and mirrors to remain in power - she talks the talk while selling Argentina to the highest bidder in back rooms. A typical politician in fact.
  Tema: Censura en fkl/mlv
humbolt

Respuestas: 20
Lecturas: 68508

MensajeForo: Malvinas hoy   Publicado: Dom Mar 28, 2010 7:23 pm   Asunto: Censura en fkl/mlv
Republic of Yorkshire! escribió:
humbolt escribió:


Fortunately for the UK not all people agree with you, but I do share your view of Thatcher's Britain.

Just because you're ignorant of the facts doesn't mean we should abandon those who historically depend upon us does it? I note you mention the Falklands but swerve around the Labour party's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which cost billions and both of which we shouldn't be involved in. The cost of the Falklands garrison is a drop in the ocean compared to that.


Like I said, I don't approve of the UK occupying foreign countries. It wasn't the real Labour Party who did that, it was Blair, and if you ask most people who supported Labour during the 1980s, Blair had very little to do with what the British Labour Party should be about. Any proper Labour government should have told the US where to shove its war, like Wilson did to Johnson in Vietnam. And look how well 'New Labour' has been rewarded for its slavish devotion to the Americans, Hillary Clinton goes to Buenos Aires and virtually acts as President Kirchner's interpreter in a news conference ha ha ha.

Perhaps the only good thing about the Conservatives winning the next election - which they will - is that Labour can get rid of all the Mandlesons, Geoff Hoons and Patricia Hewitts and all those 'Blairites' who just governed like watered down Tories for the most part, and present a genuine alternative at the next election after this one. The War was the only thing that saved Thatcher for a second term - and I had an uncle in south Yorkshire on strike in 1984, so I feel pretty bitter about how this ridiculous issue changed British history. I hope Cameron doesn't end up using the same issue as a 'get out of jail free' card when his domestic policies cause the same kind of strife and possibly riots and civil disorder as what Thatcher did in 1979-81.

When Michael Foot died recently, all the hypocrites in the media were saying what a good man he was and how much they respected him, yet he was reviled by the establishment in 1983 for trying to make this country more civilised and one to be respected. They called the 1983 Labour manifesto the longest suicide note in history, well I wasn't old enough to vote in 1983 but if I had been, I would have been happy to vote for this and would like some of its messages brought in today.

Here is what it says on the Falklands/Malvinas:

Mrs. Thatcher's policy of Fortress Falklands is imposing an intolerable burden both on the British people and on the inhabitants of the Falklands themselves. The war, which wiser policies could have avoided, has already cost us £1,000 million. On top of that the Conservative government plans to spend £600 million a year for the indefinite future on garrisoning the islands - £1 1/2 million per year for every Falklands family.

With four British servicemen on the islands to every adult male Falklander, the traditional way of life of this rural community is being destroyed. Yet at the same time Mrs. Thatcher is allowing British firms to equip warships for the Argentine dictatorship and is lending money to General Bignone to spend on arms. A Labour government would not sell arms to any Argentine government which was hostile to Britain or denied civil rights and democratic freedoms to its own people. Labour believes that Britain must restore normal links between the Falklands and the Latin American mainland, and that the United Nations must be involved in finding a permanent settlement of the problem.


What is wrong with this? Why does no British government, Labour or Conservative, think this way? Argentina is no longer a dictatorship, they are a proper democracy like everybody else, so why does our government treat them as if they're part of some 'axis of evil'? As Argentina has been a democracy for twenty years I think it is time for the UK to approach the UN and sit down with Kirchner or whoever it is and talk about it sensibly. If there is oil down there - and the Argentinians are drilling for oil in the area as well - then the two countries should be co-operating and sharing expertise.
Everyone goes on about the self determination of the Falklanders, but the Conservative Party only talks about self-determination when it suits them. What about the self-determination of all Scotland when it had the poll tax imposed on it first, as a kind of sick experiment? The Tories rode roughshod over far more people than a few thousand Falklanders over that and other things. If the Falklands became the Malvinas, would the people living there notice any real difference? I don't think they'd suddenly get a load of people from the Argentinian mainland moving there and telling them what to do? They would have a governor who would come from their own people and have a certain amount of autonomy to live as they wished. In fact, probably more autonomy than parts of northern England had under Thatcher's cetralising control in the 80s! Is Argentina proposing to force them all to speak Spanish? Some of the names might change, but does that really matter? If they really don't like it, there aren't too many of them for the UK not to assimilate them, I bet most young people who are born on the Islands can't wait to get off them and come to Britain anyway!

Britain needs all the friends it can get instead of constantly tying itself to the US and doing their dirty work for them, so this Falklands/Malvinas issue should be sorted so maybe Britain can develop relations with Latin America to both our advantages. Same with the Islamic world.
When I see Argentinians or muslims burning the British flag I don't think 'I hate Argentinians/muslims', I think it's an embarrassment that this country is throwing its weight around in such an arrogant manner to provoke such a reaction, especially when there is so much in this country that needs to be concentrated on and money spent here - not islands in South America or mountains in Afghanistan - to make it a fairer nation.

Anyway, I only found this site because I was chatting online with an Argentinian about Becchio (the Leeds footballer) and then he asked me what I thought of the Falklands/Malvinas and he said I should look on here. I understand about 50% of it because I worked in Ibiza for a year and picked up some Spanish, sorry I can't write in it, but I don't want reasonable Argentinian people to think all people in England agree with the Sun and think the 1982 war or British troops in the islands is 'a good thing'. Yorkshire folk aren't thieves or pirates, the phrases I keep seeing on here! I'm worried that Cameron is such an idiot, he may end up provoking another conflict in the next 5 years, maybe even 5 months, or is that what he wants? Brown wouldn't be any better on this of course, but he won't be PM in six weeks anyway.


I can't say that there's much you've written that I don't agree with, but I'll give you another perspective.

I'm originally from Hull but now live and work in the Shetland Islands. My support for the Falkland Islanders stems from my affinity to them as another islander, and because remote communities are generally screwed by whoever is in power, either in Edinburgh or Westminster. I understand your view regarding the people of the North -v- the home counties, but you really should try living on an island. You may as well be on Mars as far as any government is concerned.

Most of the North Sea's oil wealth is in Shetland waters, yet people here haven't said "screw you" to the rest of Britain have they? Given Shetland's historical links to Scandinavia, and following your logic, they should seek independence shouldn't they?

I also recall Prescott wanted his devolved assembly in the North, but that was rejected wasn't it? Scotland has had the option for independence for many years, but the people here don't want it either. Again, I'd like to think there's an element of social responsibility in there, which after all is infinitely preferable to the Tory "I'm alright jack" viewpoint. I rather suspect it's got more to do with Northern pragmatism i.e. we don't want another bunch of sponging MPs though.

Most of today's Falkland Islanders are descendants of colonial implants from years past. Is it the fault of those today that this is the case? No. Is it the fault of Argentines that they're Spanish colonial implants? No. Those are the facts, and whatever the legal arguments or disputes are, the UK Government undertook to guarantee their right to self determination. After all, the decision should be theirs. Or do you think forced removals like Diego Garcia is a good thing?
  Tema: Censura en fkl/mlv
humbolt

Respuestas: 20
Lecturas: 68508

MensajeForo: Malvinas hoy   Publicado: Sab Mar 27, 2010 8:10 pm   Asunto: Censura en fkl/mlv
Republic of Yorkshire! escribió:
Why are a few hundred Falklanders holding everyone to ransom? Why do they get millions of pounds spent on them that should be spent in Britain? We have enough problems here without having to constantly wet nurse these people in their little extension of privileged southern England. The Falklands war enabled Thatcher to then declare war on mining communities and working people across the uk.

Argentinians think the London government are thieves and pirates, we know how they feel! Most people in west Yorkshire don't care about the Falklands, if Argentina wants them as Malvinas then fine! If the people who live there don't like it, they are British citizens, they can come and live here and find out what being British is really like! I'm sick of newspapers like The Sun stirring up hatred of 'the Argies', it's to unite stupid people in Essex so they don't question what is going on when the next Thatcherite government starts wrecking life in the north again. Thatcher used London police to batter miners in Yorkshire, she called them 'the enemy within', absolute disgrace from a so-called leader to refer to the people she supposedly led like this.

The Malvinas is part of Argentina culture from going to school, I never heard about the Falklands at school until 1982. It means nothing to most of us, I would rather Argentina have their Malvinas and a UK government looks after people who live here not 8000 miles away!

I hope Argentinian people don't think all English like Thatcher and approve of occupying foreign countries. We felt occupied by London in 1984.

Sorry, I understand some Spanish but can't write in it, hope you understand!

Leeds first, Yorkshire second, 'English' a distant third. I don't like being the same thing as Thatcher.


Fortunately for the UK not all people agree with you, but I do share your view of Thatcher's Britain.

Just because you're ignorant of the facts doesn't mean we should abandon those who historically depend upon us does it? I note you mention the Falklands but swerve around the Labour party's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which cost billions and both of which we shouldn't be involved in. The cost of the Falklands garrison is a drop in the ocean compared to that.

Or should other parts of the UK adopt the same selfish view you present? To use stereotypes, I could ask why my taxes support a bunch of work shy layabouts in the North of England couldn't I?

That I don't is because I feel we have a responsibility to take care of all, both here and overseas.

At one time the colonies made the UK very rich - today we have a social responsibility to support these people while ensuring that they can have a democratic right of self determination.
  Tema: Censura en fkl/mlv
humbolt

Respuestas: 20
Lecturas: 68508

MensajeForo: Malvinas hoy   Publicado: Sab Mar 27, 2010 3:04 pm   Asunto: Censura en fkl/mlv
It isn't Argentine territory though, and never will be!

Argentines can bleat all they like, but you can't have what wasn't yours in the first place!
  Tema: ¿Puede un tsunami canario arrasar el mundo?
humbolt

Respuestas: 1
Lecturas: 54227

MensajeForo: Desastres naturales, cambio climatico   Publicado: Vie Mar 19, 2010 5:33 pm   Asunto: ¿Puede un tsunami canario arrasar el mundo?
See La Palma Tsunami
  Tema: Censura en fkl/mlv
humbolt

Respuestas: 20
Lecturas: 68508

MensajeForo: Malvinas hoy   Publicado: Vie Mar 19, 2010 5:29 pm   Asunto: Censura en fkl/mlv
El Eternauta escribió:
Shuriel escribió:
No pueden con la verdad, ni tampoco mantener sus falacias de tolerancia y representación racional de ideas. NO LO SON.


Por este foro pasaron varios ingleses como David Barrow, Hutch, Cas entre otros y que también son foristas de Fkl/Mlv. Ellos eran la fotocopia de Spencer o más bien "los voceros de Spencer", comentaban exactamente lo mismo que él. La respuesta de Israel es casi la misma que les dijimos a ellos durante años.
Estos ingleses nunca van a reconocer que nos robaron las islas Malvinas, nunca van a reconocer el daño que les hicieron a los habitantes de la isla Diego García que los expulsaron a golpes de sus tierras para instalar una base militar de EE.UU., nunca van a reconocer los daños y los genocidios que cometieron sus gobiernos en la cuarta parte del mundo, etc. por más que su historia los delata y muy bien.
Nosotros por venir reclamando desde 1833 un trozo de patria usurpada por ellos y que nos pertenece por derecho, somos los malos.
Pero fijate vos, estos ingleses como buscan desesperadamente cualquier argumento, siempre nos responden sobre la guerra de la Triple Alianza, sobre los indios asesinados en la Patagonia, etc. etc. Hasta no me olvido de la respuesta del inglés David Barrow cuando me dijo, ustedes, los argentinos deberían regresar a España y devolverles la tierra a los indios, nada menos que un inglés nos viene a decir esto. Y solo por reclamar Malvinas, cuando se sabe muy bien que mucho antes que Port Stanley estaba Puerto Luis y luego Puerto Soledad, es allí donde habitaban nuestra gente. Los primeros colonos ingleses llegan a Malvinas a partir de 1842 y no antes. Desde 1820 hasta 1833 había una población llegada desde el continente, entre ellos criollos, también habían autoridades, se comercializaba, flameaba la bandera celeste y blanca, ya habían nacido niños, nuestro país estaba en posición efectiva en las islas, etc.


Un abrazo


I disagree.

I have always stated that what happened to the people of Diego García was wrong, as did Hutch. Fortunately the vast majority of British people also agree with us on such issues, and the Government has been forced through the Courts to take notice.

You cite the shameful case of Diego García as a past British wrong (which it is) yet expect us to do exactly the same thing again by forcibly removing the Falklanders or making them accept Argentine sovereignty against their will.

That won't happen, and stopping it happening is one thing I would fight for.
  Tema: os británicos dicen que no dudan de la soberanía de las isla
humbolt

Respuestas: 12
Lecturas: 52285

MensajeForo: Malvinas hoy   Publicado: Mie Mar 03, 2010 4:04 pm   Asunto: os británicos dicen que no dudan de la soberanía de las isla
I have never made a claim to be an historical expert, but I do know that the Argentine case is also full of holes. You omit the bits of history you don't like and quote breaking treaties that we either didn't agree to in the first place or weren't actual signatories at the time.

What is particularly compelling is the fact that Argentina still refuses to take her case to the ICJ, which is odd considering some on these forums think Argentina's case is cast iron and support from other Latin American countries is high. This has to be balanced by the fact that the UN response has been lukewarm at best, and Europe isn't interested.

In the meantime all trade agreements between Latin America and Europe are still going ahead. Very odd behaviour isn't it?

There were tales of all sorts of action and dire consequences by Argentina if drilling commenced. Well, drilling has commenced yet not a great deal of action is evident from Argentina is it?

I think Argentina is barking up the wrong tree on this issue. There are far more sensible approaches.
  Tema: os británicos dicen que no dudan de la soberanía de las isla
humbolt

Respuestas: 12
Lecturas: 52285

MensajeForo: Malvinas hoy   Publicado: Sab Feb 27, 2010 7:28 am   Asunto: os británicos dicen que no dudan de la soberanía de las isla
Thanks for the feedback.

I do not (and have not) ever claimed to know the answers on these historical questions, but what is clear to me is that there are massive holes in both Argentine and British arguments.

I suspect that flaws in the Argentine argument is the main reason the Argentine Government hasn't escalated the current dispute to the ICJ or similar.

Putting faith in the UN to resolve anything is as much use as a chocolate teapot.
 
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